The situation in Spain, alongside the one in Italy, is being described as especially severe when it comes to the effects of the Corona virus. So I decided to go the source and interview a friend living in Madrid, whose very harsh reaction on Twitter about the EU’s reaction to the crisis prompted me to prod deeper. I hope the interview will be interesting to all readers, even if we depart a bit in the usual language here on the blog. Please try to keep the comments in English as well. außen
Stefan: Hi Javi, before we begin, could you quickly introduce yourself?
Javi: Hi, my name is Javier Marcos. I am Spanish, I live in Madrid and am a friend of Stefan since quite a few years thanks to A Song of Ice and Fire, the fantasy masterpiece by George R.R. Martin adapted (kind of) to TV by HBO in the show Game of Thrones.
Stefan: Hey, thanks for the warm words and for doing this. So, to get things started, the impetus for our conversation was my retweeting an article of The American Conservative that stated the thesis that the EU betrayed Italy, to which you replied that they betrayed Spain as well and that you, as a formerly pro-European Spaniard, are now rejecting the EU as well, because you share in this feeling of betrayal. Could you maybe fill us quickly about the precise issue at hand?
Javi: Well, first of all, I have to say that I have always been very pro-European. I think that the EU prevented conflicts in a continent that has been suffering internal wars, between regions and countries, the last 2500 years.
But EU was founded with a purpose: no frontiers for people and capital, common market, common regulations and solidarity and cooperation between countries. The introduction of a common currency for most of his members helped it.
But we have realized when the situation is dire, EU simply is not there. It was not there in the Balkans Wars, it was no there in 2008 crisis, and, in the worst moment of Europe since World War II, the coronavirus crisis, we don’t see it AT ALL in Spain.
Stefan: So, before we get into the details about the EU’s action or inaction, could you give us a quick overview of the situation Spain? Here in Germany, the Corona crisis is, as of yet, not as acutely felt as in Madrid.
Javi: Spain is in the top 4 countries in the world with more cases of Coronavirus, considering deaths, people in Intensive Care Units and people sick at all. And we have only a population 45 million people. Remember, Spain it’s a country with a great Welfare State and notable public healthcare, better than the United Kingdom NHS and miles away of US public healthcare system.
We already know that a lot of countries are lying regarding the real data, not doing many tests and not counting for example people with previous illnesses and old people in elder residences – Spain counts them as death by coronoavirus. But even with that, we are really suffering this drama only under Italy, China and US. And China are US are far bigger countries than Spain. Yesterday we had 900+ deaths, and the last week we are having 800+deaths on average PER DAY. That is insane, numbers even bigger than a war.
Stefan: Thanks. With that unpleasant housekeeping business out of the view, let’s turn our view to the EU. It has never been known for decisive action, and its whole structure, decision making process and institutional routines are very badly adapted to this kind of crisis. It’s a very deliberative body.
However, I’ve been myself very critical of the organisation and its handling of the crisi on several grounds, especially where it comes to the closing of borders as a placebo that sends a wrong message (everyone for themselves, basically) and does nothing to alleviate the situation, and much more so when we talk about the question of finance. This was the direction the head of the Netherland’s government was going, irking your ire.
So, the point of my question is this: Are you mad because the EU is nowhere to be seen, like when it comes to providing emergency supplies, personell etc., basically the classical crisis reaction mode, or is this more about the reaction on the money side of things when it comes to questions of how the Eurozone is going to handle the immense amounts of money that will be required to handle the effects that are not directly related to the virus, but rather secondary effects, like unemployment and business crashes?
Javi: I am mad for both things, to be honest. And frankly, almost everyone I speak to, some of them pro-EU like me in the past, think the same when I ask them. The EU seems dead to us. Popular support for the EU is 19% in a poll, lowest ever conducted this week by one of Spanish biggest survey companies. First of all, the EU is completely unseen. Have they sent material? Well, maybe, but the number being so low is insignificant. The EU posted a tweet the other day showing the help sent to Italy. Great, but our situation it’s pretty similar to Italy, and even worse considering the date after the crisis started in each country. And there was not a single mention at all of us! Every single day we receive a lot of material from China, from American countries, airplanes filled with health materials…and I still haven’t seen a single plane with the EU flag carrying tons of respirators.
I have friends who are doctors and nurses. I talk with them almost every day. They told me than in their hospitals they have received professional advice (learning courses, how to treat when some pathology kicks off, use of material..) mostly from China and Italy. Nothing from the EU, nothing from the countries of Northern Europe (we consider France one of us), not Mediterranean ones.
The second thing you mentioned is of course also very important. Every time a politician from the north of Europe, those who called us PIGS in the past (never forget that), speaks about the crisis, sounds like a lecture. You should have had more austerity, like us. You should have been more responsible with money, like us. You should have handled your finances better after the crisis of 2008, like us. Well, it’s easier to be responsible if you are a de facto tax haven in the EU like the Netherland is. Or if you don’t treat elder people with the virus and just let them die to save resources. Or if, thanks to the euro, you kept the most high tech industries and sold us those products easily while we sold you sun, beaches and fruit. It’s a great deal always trading microscopes for oranges, due to the added value of the commercial transactions.
But the most outrageous stuff is the complete lack of solidarity, bordering sociopathy. We are a union of countries, after all. And when we have 700-900 deaths EACH day in Spain and Italy for the last two weeks and a Finnish, German or Netherland politician talks about the economical conditions of the so-called Euro-bonds and why they reject it instead of worrying about thousands and thousand of deaths…it’s easy to understand the rage. Socialist Portugal Prime Minister Antonio Costa said it better: it was repugnant.
Stefan: I’m unsure as of yet whether this is mostly a crisis of manners, basically, or of substance. What I mean by that is that I’m very sceptical about the value and volume of Chinese “help”. For example, the first Chinese plane that arrived with much fanfare in Italy only brought them goods they had actually bought and paid, but the Chinese marketed it (brilliantly, I might add) as a relief mission.
I also know that Germany actually did send some help to other countries. Not a lot, mind you, but it matches the Chinese marketing stunt any day. My question would now be whether the help offered by China is more substantial than the EU, or whether basically everyone leaves Spain and to fend for itself and the EU is just tactless enough to combine it with the, to quote, repugnant lectures. And to avoid any misunderstandings: I think the EU rhetoric is repugnant as well, and I fully share the assessment you make.
Javi: I have to say that I don’t like China at all. It’s a communist dictatorship regime, a country with no freedom, where the virus came from after nasty censorship of the government and a lack of measures to avoid situations like the ones that originated it. It’s insane that the wet markets are legal in 2020. I don’t buy their official data about deaths at all, and you just need to talk with someone with contacts there to know that the Chinese government is not only lying but also trying to cover up their mistakes.
And of course, the Chinese help is pure propaganda. But right now, we need health material from China. We need that China buys our debt if the Spanish State launches a founding campaign of national bounds in order to rescue companies that may collapse after the crisis. Now we need to survive, because thousands of people and business are dying. After the crisis is over, we’ll discuss if those who helped us were pures of heart. But first I eat, then I ask.
I don’t have all the data to know if China is sending more material than the EU to Spain. I think so. But I am sure that they seem to send more. And it’s not only important to do things, but to show that you are doing it. Communication is key, and the EU does not communicate well: it looks like a bunch of bureaucrats with no impact on the real life of the people. The image is not good at all.
Stefan: You mentioned earlier the Spanish welfare state and its health system being generally good. I have no idea how either of them works, so could you sketch out a bit how they work in Spain? What benefits is one entitled to, and how is the health system organized and financed?
Javi: Almost 80% of the Spanish national budget (around 1 billion euros, the european billion, not the American) is dedicated to the support of the Welfare State, mostly health, education and retirement pensions. Make it 85% with the pensions to the unemployed. I would say that more than half of that money is invested in health. Spain is not a federal state like Germany or US, it’s even more decentralized: the regions (Comunidades Autónomas) have a direct legislation on many matters, including health and education. The central State gives money to the regions and they manage the health system as they want, following some laws of the Spanish state but each one having some specific legislation, too.
Basically, the Spanish Welfare State regarding the health system in Spain is a pure dream of socialism. You can go to any doctor in the public health system for free, in every emergency, they will do even the most complicated surgeries or treatments without you having to pay for a penny. There is not a co-pay. Spain has the biggest life expectancy of the world, surpassing even Japan, and that is due to weather, good and healthy food and, yes, most of all, the public health system. A private health system exists, of course: you may go there in order to avoid waiting two months for a non-urgent surgery, to avoid waiting a week for X-Rays, for physiotherapy, for an special treatment if you are pregnant or for a beauty surgery. It’s a commodity. But if you have a life or death situation, you will almost sure go to a public hospital.
How is it possible? Well, because it’s not sustainable. The system only works because doctors, nurses, etc have wages far lower than in other European countries. There are thousand of Spanish doctors and nurses all around the world, due to that. They have a great reputation due to the formation, and as I will explain later, most of them go outside after 10 years of studies and 4 or 5 working as doctors.
Moreover, there is an interesting system that helps healthcare called MIR (internal medical residency). In MIR, after your six years of studying your Medicine degree (or four of Nursery, Pharmacy, Psychology, etc), you can work in a public hospital with a reduced but ascending (and at the end, quite nice) wage while you focus in your speciality: Surgery, Neurology, Nephrology, Oncology, etc for four or five years. Almost every doctor in Spain goes to MIR after he or she finishes the degree in the university. A doctor starts their professional career and looks for a job after 10-11 years studying and 4-5 working as a doctor in an hospital.
Stefan: That means that you basically staff the public health system with trainees? That’s fascinating. So when you say “not sustainable”, does this mean not sustainable for the people involved, so you have a high turnover, or does it mean that you think the system itself isn’t sustainable and needs to be reformed?
Javi: Well, not exactly “trainees”: that’s people who are 24-25 years old, have finished the medical degree (six years) and took a difficult national exam one year after they finished the degree. Considering the mark you get you can pick the specialty and hospital where you want to the residency. It’s not easy to have a place in the best hospital in Madrid regarding heart surgeries, for example.
I said it’s not sustainable because it’s only afloat due to low salaries for doctors/nurses in the public healthcare, considering what doctors/nurses earn in other countries. And one day it may collapse. But even in this crisis it resisted (at a high cost), so I am optimistic. The system does not need to be reformed, it just needs more money to hire more doctors/nurses and pay more to the ones already working. I think that regarding material and techniques, the Spanish public health system is fine.
Stefan: Financing is the same problem everywhere, and dare I say, the countries in which financing has been more generous (or “wasteful” to its critics) are doing better than those that bet on economic efficiency as the most important benchmark.
Returning to the heart of the matter, the EU, do you think Corona will be the death knell for the union, and if so, what do you think will replace it? Spain is depending on the free movement of goods and people for its economy, after all. And do you are an end to the Euro as a net benefit or net loss?
Javi: First of all, I want to remind the Italy and Spain are the third and fourth biggest economies of the EU. The exit of both of them after what happened to the UK would be the de facto end of the current system. And as I explained, for many people in Spain and Italy, the EU seems to beg for an anti-EU-movement after the pathetic display during the crisis.
Regarding the Euro, Spain’s individual wealth was reduced after the implementation. Prices increased since 2002 – the Euro adoption – far more than the average growth in salaries. But the Euro helps in other matters such as international foundation and access to overseas markets. You cannot print your own money to help in a crisis, but neither does your currency depreciates so much after a crisis like 2008. It’s a complex topic.
I think that coronavirus will be the death of the good image of the EU in the South. Brexit also brings a dangerous precedent: you can leave EU, and EU will do nothing to stop you. And the UK was very important to the EU, mostly because it was a country that was giving more money than receiving from Brussels. When the health crisis ends and the financial crisis starts to impact everyone, I think the image of the EU will be even worse than now in the Mediterranean countries (and now it’s an all-time low) due to the lack of long-term commitment, the refusal of corona-bonds and the lack of empathy of Holland, Finland, Germany, etc.
About the actual death…I don’t think so, even if Spain and Italy are outraged about the lack of European presence during the crisis. In a dream scenario, we may leave EU, form an association of countries with Portugal, Italy, France, Greece, Croatia, etc, a Mediterranean-EU with special deals for example with the Brexit UK (the country with more tourists here and with thousand of retired elders living in Spanish coast), US, China, etc. If UK got at the end a nice deal regarding movement of people and capitals after Brexit, why not in an Spexit or Itexit?
But that is not realistic. Tourism is a key of our economy and sharing a currency with other countries helps here, after all. I think that Spain and Italy will swallow the deal and the EU funding programs. But inside, we will never forget what happened, like we never forgot the North’s PIGS narrative after the 2008 crisis. Nationalism will rise, anti EU parties will grow, people won’t care about Brussels policies…but the current system will continue. Mostly because the richest and most powerful benefit from it.
Stefan: That is a rather gloomy outlook, but I can’t say I haven’t been prepared for it, given your initial statements. I have one final question on the topic: Why do you think wasn’t the impact of the EU’s conduct during the financial crisis, which was arguably much worse in its effects (albeit not in the looks of it), as strong and threatening to European cohesion as it the Corona-crisis?
Javi: I think that Corona-crisis is far bigger than any other crisis since WWII because people are dying every day, directly, because of of it. You could realize in the 2008 crisis that a lot of people would lose their job, would earn less money or work more hours for the same wage.
But you were not seeing an ice ring transformed into a morgue. You were not hearing how elders are not treated in a hospital because there are simply not enough intensive care units for them, that they’re dying alone and being stored in a coffins somewhere without a burial, without their families, due to the curfew and quarantine. You wouldn’t have a regular daily cipher of deaths compared to an actual war for weeks. And the EU simply was not there to help.
No EU flags on doctors traveling here to help. No EU flags on airplanes with health material. Not a high official of the EU telling us on TV that they will help us in everything we need without asking for compensation, because the priority is to save lives now and we are part of the EU family, so we care for each other. Instead, you turn on TV and check what the EU is doing, and the only thing you see of the EU is an economy minister from Holland or Germany saying than the South is responsible for this crisis because of their lack of commitment to austerity policies and that they will not agree to corona-bonds because they don’t trust us. Hearing that piece of news and minutes later hearing that “only” 700 people died yesterday due to coronavirus in my country – the EU seems like a joke.
Stefan: Thanks for doing this! If you have any final words, something we haven’t covered yet, it’s now or never!
Javi: Thanks a lot for this opportunity! I am sorry my words sound so dark and sad, but this crisis is devastating for my country, the one of the world with more deaths per habitant. And the people that die are not numbers, are the parents of grandparents of family and friends. Maybe in a few months I will have a different look, but now I just want health, justice and the promise of future help.
Stefan: Best wishes to you and yours, and let’s hope that there’s a brighter future ahead for all of us.
Thanks Sasse for this interview. That is an brillant idea. Also thanks to Javi for the discussion.
We had a chat about EU in Corona in another article and also a chat about the EuroBonds.
I am not surprised that he people in Italy and Spain are turning their back to the EU.
It is a long story. A currency that does not fit for all combined with strutral reforms and austerrity is a totaly mad idea. Even before Corona unemployment rate for youg people was extremly high in Spain and Italy. The only answer of EU (especially Germany, Austria, netherlends and Finland) was more austerity and structural reformms that lead to more precarius employment.
For me a as a former pro European the EU is dead. No moral values, no solidarity.
Apparently the EU can save banks but not people. Wonderfull!
Kind regards
Jens
Question remains: What follows? I’m not a fan of „tear it all down“ because I’m very sceptical that better things will follow.
I totaly agree. I would prefer a slow transition either to a real political union, that would include some sort of transfer union or go back to local currencies.
Both are not easy ways. The first way needs a complete change of mindset especially in Germany, Austria, Netherlands. Since the „saving“ of Greeces I doubt very much that that is going to happen. The way our mainstream media was reporting about the „lazy“ Greeks was so rassitic that I do not see this way as a possible option.
The second way needs an agreement of all country that we first have to narrow the gap of the productivity in the Euro countries. The gap in productivity between the countrys in the Euro is the main reason for the problems the Euro inflicts. The debths of the states in the Euro have absolutely nothing to do with the problems of the Euro. Trying to fix the problems of the Euro by leveling the depth rate of the states in the Euro is like putting the cart before the horse.
To level the productivity would mean that Germany gives a bit away of its productivity (raise the salaries) and the south (stops increasing the salaries). That would mean Germany has to stop dancing around the golden calf ExportSurplus. Narrwoing the gap of productivity only by increasing the productivity of the South could only work if we heavily invest into the south. (Marshall Plan 2.0). Who ever thinks that we can increase productivity in the south by austerity as absolutely no clue. That has never happend at any time at any place in world in the whole entire history of mankind for such a big country that the EU is. It only worked in rather small countries that could create a exportsurplus. For example Mexico and Canada did it in the Nafta at the costs of a highly increased importsurplus for the US. The Euro countries in total are simply to big. The tradewar of Trump shows clearly that the US is no longer accepting its role as the only important importsurplus country. This is not only the illminded opinion of Mr. Trump. This has a huge support in the US.
Why is it important to level the productivity in the Euro countries before we go back to national currencies. If we go back to national currencies a shock inflicted by massive devaluation or evaluation has to be avoided.
A high devaluation would lead to a massive inflation in the south, making it hard to get medicine and other stuff. A massive evaluation would lead to mass unemployment in Germany because our exports would become bloody expensive over night.
Once we have gone back to national currency every nation can go back to the scheme they prefer. The currency exchange rate would then level most of the productivity gap in the future.
A sudden break up of the Euro should be avoided. No question about it.
What I fear and what I see in the moment is that we do not make any progress in either one of the two directions. I know only the situation in Germany. We are not willing to accept any kind of transfer union but we also do not want to give up any single bit of productivity. Altthough we have a gigantic export surplus the media starts talking about our increased unit labor costs.
https://www.focus.de/finanzen/boerse/gastbeitrag-gabor-steingart-epidemie-setzt-schwaechelnde-deutsche-wirtschaft-weiter-unter-druck_id_11726784.html
If that would not be so serious it would be a good comedy.
To make a long story short. I do not see the slightest chance for one of the two options.
We are not led by sober and logical thinking elites but either by market fundamentalist believers or populist leaders. Who either ignore or misjudge reality. Merkel falls in the category ignoring populist. No other legislation paid so much money for (never published) polls.
In the long term reality can not be ignored. That the Euro is not functional is not denied by the majority of international economist. Even in Germany Prof. Sinn is complaining about the huge Target2. But beside the useless Mastricht criteria no solution is in sight. This is why I fear a sudden break up.
The now found 500 Billion Euros for the south are a bad joke. This is less was Germany is spending to save its own economy. It will lead to more frustration in the south. This will fire up anti EU movements. If we keep heating up a pot of hot water it will explode one day if we do not lift the lid on time.
Happy Easter
Jens
Agreed.
Tear it all down and build a new one!
Works after WWII and maybe it could work after the biggest crisis since WWII too. Hopefully without a world in ruins and millions of dead people.
The situation after WWII was unique. Europe in shambles, two superpowers dominating the continent in an intense competition of systems. And even then it was a close thing.
Yes, but I think global pandemic crisis now is a unique situation too. Maybe after all the EU is broken and we are alone in our nation states (or together with the netherlands and poland without spain and italy-> please not!) but maybe we can collect enough people with hope of a better future and a working EU. I hope so, but it’s not sure. Everyone needs some idealism today 😉
My idealism leads me to think that the EU needs to be reformed.
I’m ok with a reform too. But please! Without Poland and Hungary and other nations who are experts in destroying democracy! Otherwise I stay on the „Tear it all down“-side^^
I think we’d need to ditch the notion that the same set of rules applies to the whole Union and move on with those willing to.
Reformed when and by whom? The EU is not a trusted institution anymore anywhere. The rise of nationalist populists everywhere is a reminder of the spirit that is growing in the member states. With the UK, we had the first departure of a state from the union. Hungary is an outright dictatorship now. Poland is following behind in the same steps. There has been a complete lack of solidarity of the Northern countries with the South long before anyone knew what a coronavirus was. Remember what we did to Greece? The latest big news from Brussels before COVID-19 hit our communities, was throwing away even the tiniest steps towards a more democratic EU by installing a President of the European Commission in a closed-doors meeting after pushing aside all candidates who had legitimately run for the office. There is virtually nothing left in this construct of the EU that is worth fighting for.
And then, the coronavirus hit.
When I read Javi’s comments, I must admit that I have never been so ashamed and embarrassed for my German nationality in my entire life. I am saddened. I am heart-broken. And I think I agree with Ariane. This EU must be torn down to the ground. Maybe something viable will arise from the ashes. Maybe not. But sure as hell, nothing viable is going to arise from the current clusterfuck.
Agreed
Hey Stefan and Javi, thank you for the great interview! And sorry for my bad english. Today my head is full of pandemic problems and usually I don’t have to use active english in my daily life. 😉
Please let me say, that normal people have other opinions like their governments. I come from northern Germany and have relatives and friends in Denmark since my childhood. And normally I am a fanatic Pro-EU-Woman. It breaks my heart when I see the pictures and stories about Madrid, Italy and France. For me, we are one continent, you are our neighbors and I think it’s not ok to start crazy moral hazard debates when neighbors just need help. And you are absolutely right, the EU is horrible in communication and totally stucked in her bureaucracy. It’s a desaster.
And I guess it’s especially hard für Pro-Europeans like you and me and Stefan. I love Europe but currently I’m also mad of the EU. I don’t want an organisation like this. The EU is founded to avoid another crisis like WWII and now we suffer a big crisis, really the biggest crisis like WWII and the EU is useless to help, to send solidarity or at least some kind words.
And I don’t want to be in a northern EU with the Netherlands and Poland and Hungary and all the other european countries without heart and empathy. I want to be in an EU with solidarity with UK, Spain, Italy, France, Greece and all countries which are convinced that values like freedom and solidarity are important.
So my best wishes to all the people in Spain!
@StefanSasse
Bisschen gemein, jetzt auch noch die Sprache zu wechseln 😉
Es ist spät und ich hab jetzt nur das Nötigste gegooglet, wenn ich einige Vokabeln nachgucken musste. Reicht ja schon, dass man gerade auf Deutsch so exotische Wörter wie epidemologisch braucht^^ Wär lieb, wenn der Herr Englischlehrer nochmal drüberliest und gucken könnte, ob das halbwegs verständlich herüberkommt 🙂
Kein Problem.^^
Bad simple english for the win! 😉
Totalmente de acuerdo con la opinión de Javi y el análisis que hace de la situación actual. Yo pertenezco a otra generación mayor en edad y pienso que muchas personas de mi edad esperábamos una respuesta mejor, sobre todo de Holanda, que, como señala Javi, se ha convertido en un paraiso fiscal.
Pero también quiero añadir que la gestión del gobierno español no ha sido la más acertada, sobre todo en Madrid, al inicio, permitiendo (incluso promoviendo) una manifestación en la que se contagiaron miles de personas y el acto de un partido político y espectáculos deportivos masivos. El gobierno, con la informació que tenía, debería haber prohibido esos actos, tal vez así, en Madrid habría habido menos fallecidos.
EDIT:
German translation according to google translator:
Ganz im Einklang mit Javis Meinung und seiner Analyse der aktuellen Situation. Ich gehöre zu einer anderen Generation, die älter ist, und ich denke, dass viele Menschen in meinem Alter eine bessere Reaktion erwartet haben, insbesondere aus den Niederlanden, die, wie Javi betont, zu einer Steueroase geworden sind.
Ich möchte aber auch hinzufügen, dass das Management der spanischen Regierung am Anfang, insbesondere in Madrid, nicht das erfolgreichste war und eine Demonstration, bei der Tausende von Menschen infiziert waren, sowie den Akt einer politischen Partei und Sportshows ermöglichte (sogar förderte) massiv. Die Regierung hätte mit den ihr vorliegenden Informationen diese Handlungen verbieten sollen, vielleicht hätte es in Madrid weniger Todesfälle gegeben.
Yeah, I also read that the Spanish government was slow to enact measures. However, so was the German one. I guess you guys got unlucky by contracting more cases than we did initially.
I agree that the Spanish government handled the corona epidemic very poorly.
It is also no question that the Greece goverment had a very poor performance.
But both facts can not be an argument that we put the people in Greece in such a desperate situation like we did in 2015 or that we now are not willing to help the people in Italy, Spain and France.
Why do we need a EU if we do not show solidarity in a such a situation. I thought we have high moral values in common. Where are they? Considered as to expensive?
Jens
Sorry, Jens: solidarity doesn’t work on such a level, particularly, if it comes with demands for monetary subsidies.
Solidarity is a term from family matters. In the circle of families we are showing solidarity. Anyone in Athen where I am not able to spell the name, any person in Helsinki is not closer to me than anyone in Manchester, Santiago de Chile or Singapore. The single uniting between us is a construct of contractual cooperation.
In the event that any party wish to suspend the contractual framework there is no further fundament for cooperation. Solidarity? Forget it! Solidarity does not work one-way. But that’s the interpretation of most of the member states who have jointed the European Union after 1982 with the exception of the Nordic and Baltic states.
solidarity doesn’t work on such a level, particularly, if it comes with demands for monetary subsidies.
Hu? Solidarity has to work on every(!) level when it comes to life or death. Thats the sense of solidarity! It works without egoism and quid-pro-quo-thoughts.
Otherwise its not solidarity! Lefties are no fans of middle-class-values (bürgerliche Tugenden) 😉
You are driving the term to an extend without broader acceptance. Typical for the political left. More worse: you do not believe in what you are propagandising.
I would share the last Cent with my family if needed. I am forced to share half of my income with the citizens of Germany in case of trouble. But – as well as you – I would not share a Penny with anyone in Antofagasta (Chile). If you would be truly convinced you would go to Africa, spend any Euro out of your pocket that people would be able to buy water, food and health care services. Because, Ariane, each day people are dying hundreds of thousands while they are suffering essentials.
You do not believe in your own Propaganda and so you cannot convince me. I confess to the natural borders of solidarity: Family and Nationality.
Typical for the political left.
Today I’m really glad to be in the club of political lefties. We don’t talk about opening everything now when there is danger to the weakest. So please: be careful or I treat you like I want to treat C. Lindner and forget that you are not a heartless national liberal like him.
I’m much closer to Javi in Madrid than a random guy in Sachsen-Anhalt burning refugee housings, that’s for certain.
OMG, me too. And closer than to our farmers who fly around poor people through Europe so we germans can eat vegetables.
Agreed. But you only confirm my position. You are close to Javi because he is a friend. You know him, you are familar with him. But you exclude all Spanish. Moreover: your feeling of nearness and the willingness to pay own money for it depends how close you are politically.
That is totally different to you political demands: you are not solidary with nationalities, you are solidary with single persons.
That is totally different to you political demands: you are not solidary with nationalities
???
Solidarity works only! from people to people. Not with nations or things or other things. Its impossible to be solidar (solidarisch) with a stone or an idea!
If I understand the Spanish and Italian government correctly the prime minsters demand solidarity by nations. Good to know that you have a different opinion. 😉
The problem is nations and governments are nothing without people. And I don’t care about governments and EU rules at the moment. There are people suffering and they need help. And money is easier to share than medicine. And some kind words can help too btw. Nothing more to say.
Actually, you do not care about a lot of issues. That may result in a limited ability to judge.
In these crucial weeks lifes cannot be saved by international money but human resources. Each Country suffers by the same virus, don’t forget. Italy and Spain are not daily sending letters of sympathy for the German or British death toll.
Yes. But: in these crucial weeks money and kind words are the only things we have to share. Better than nothing, and better than moral judgement and some sort of cruelty.
It’s also a crisis for fanatic Pro-Europeans like me (and Javi and Stefan and Ralf). What happens when the last people lose the hope in EU? Are you willing to defend it? Or the FDP and Lindner or Merz? Which EU do you want? Great Germans, good friends of Poland, the Netherlands and Hungary, laughing about poor mediterran nations?
Good luck! But I guess institutions like the EU only works, when people are convinced about the goals and values or love to travel all around. The Righties or National Liberals don’t love the EU, it’s just technocratic reality and that’s not enough.
Interesting: you may be suprised if I would define myself as enthusiastic European?
Europe is a difficult subject. Politically, there are several fractions – geographically Southern, Northern, Eastern. Politically divided in the followers of a union of the nations, Internationalists, Nationalists, Market Liberalists, Socialists. This cocktail is further mixed with national interests and mentalities, budget frictions, economy strengths and structures (i.e. Agriculture, Export oriented, dominated by financial industry). It’s really, really complicated.
Money ist better than moral judgement?! That’s from a leftist who has said several times before that rules are nothing else as moralities? Obviously, the European citizens do not have a common understanding what the EU should be. You emphasis money – and that wasn’t the common understanding at the beginning. And it is not the common understanding written in the Lissabon treaty. It is not the understanding of the Maastricht Framework for a Monetary Union. So, what are you talking about?
In most political themes I am Analyst and Observer. We are a community of more than 400 Million people and opinions. My point of view is not a subject of interest. My influence on German politics is marginal but I am a small opinion maker. In respect of the European policies, I am Nothing.
I am still a big fan and supporter of the European institutions and their further development. Since a few years, I have become reluctant in spite of the the evolution making the European Union a state similar to the political understanding dominated in France and in the other mediterranean countries. A state where the central bank finance the state. A state with low competition but high subsidies, a state with industry politics and high tax levels. At this stage, I am not convinced of the European idea.
In a globalized world, categories such as nation don’t hold the same appeal to me. I feel closer to all New Yorkers than to all people in rural Württemberg.
In a globalized world, categories such as nation don’t hold the same appeal to me.
You said it. I am sorry but that’s not the feeling of millions and millions of European cititzens. The politicans elected have to ruled according the interests and feelings of their populations.
I know. But my feeling is legit, too. And I’m free to express it, to make political demands of it, and to try and persuade others.
Absolutely. The big But: Good democrats respect the votum and the opinion of the majority. And the majority in Germany as well as in the northern states of the European Union is crystal clear. Critisising elected representatives for their politics while they excecute the willingness of the overwhelming majority is highly unfair and undermines the trust in the institutions.
Where do you see me not respecting the vote of the majority?
Okay, misunderstandable.
Many (leftists) criticise their governments – mainly in Germany – not supporting the southern demand for common bonds. I would recommend: do not criticise the administration, fight for other majorities. And in the event you loose this fight, be selfreflected and respect the reasons why your fellow citizens reject your arguments.
Sorry, Jens: solidarity doesn’t work on such a level, particularly, if it comes with demands for monetary subsidies.
I do not necessarly disagree. Even the IWF came to this conclusion. But then the only logical consequence is to finish the Euro in cautious manner. The Euro was intended to accelerate the political union. But a political union without this solidarity makes no sense at all. Even worse it will kill the EU one day.
In Germany we have a huge transfer union between North and South and West and East. Without it Bremen could never be in currency union with Bavaria. Even the US with no „Länderfinanzausgleich“ do have a much much bigger transfer union between the states than we have in the EWU through common taxes, military expenses, unemployment benefit etcetera. With a certain amount of transfer union every currency union will fail. In the US the problem can also be lowered because people can move easily to places where the work is. This is also happening in the EWU but at a much lower level through the language barrier.
Right now the regulations, laws and treaties in the EWU have the effect that the Euro does deepen the problems and so making a political union less likey than more likely. The euro is therefore having the negative effect for which it was intended.
No, Jens, your argumentation is not compelling. Each nation belongs to several international contractually based communities -even North Korea. We are working together without close solidarity mainly driven by our national interests. It may also works with a monetary union if it is based on a framework. A framework which defines who could join and when you have to leave.
Also: in each country you have balancing systems in place. The shortfall in Italy between the regions is much larger than in the most other member states of the European Union. Has there anytime anywhere a pleading to divide Italy?
If such a contractually based system of cooperation is not workable than I would agree to you. But that’s not my opinion.
I guess not the Euro is deepening the matters in Europe. We have absolute different interests and expectations to a monetary union. Although we have closed contracts about it we are unable to reach a common understanding. The nothern states have the best experiences with a stable currency and independent institutions. The southern states expect financial support from their central bank and a politically influenced currency.
The northern states are the rich the southern the poors. They have had reasons to become member of currency promissing stability as in Germany. So, who will win?
Also: in each country you have balancing systems in place. The shortfall in Italy between the regions is much larger than in the most other member states of the European Union. Has there anytime anywhere a pleading to divide Italy?
You contradict yourself. I claim we need transfers to avoid a split or divide the EWU. You come up with Italy as example that has huge differences between North and South and in the same time you say that „each country“ has balancing systems in place. Don’t you think that the balancing system that is in place in Italy is just avoiding the split from south and north? So in fact Italy is an example that shows WITH transfers a huge difference in productivity can be withstand without a split. What you are saying is an argument for my point of view.
You have to find an example that a monetary union withold without transfers. Good luck so far all of this monetary unions failed.
The nothern states have the best experiences with a stable currency and independent institutions. The southern states expect financial support from their central bank and a politically influenced currency.
The stability of a currency has not so much to do with the influence of the central bank. It has way more to do how historical the nominal wages developed in comparison to the productivity. For example Italy always had higher inflation because the wages increased more than productivity. This will result in a weaker currency. Before Italy joined the EURO it had real growth allthough it had a higher infaltion because it still had growth in productivity. The problem is that Italy continued this in the morneatry union and are now not able to devaluate their currency like they did in the past.
And by the way Germany has a tradition that its spending is founded by foreing countries that pay for our trade surplus and take on depth for this. This will not work for long with the EWU. Trump does not like it and he is by far not the only one in the US.
And a scond by the way. Right now the US and the UK rely on their central Banks. In the UK the central bank can now directly found the government without the banks in between. And UK and US came back much better after the crisis in 2009 than the EWU. I am pretty sure that our fundamentalistic fiscal beahviour will slow down the growth after Corona again. Nothing learned from the last crisis. Ignorance is bliss.
The framework that we need to run the monetary union WITHOUT transfers implies that we have to balance the growth of wages in every region in the EWU to the growth of productivity. There is no instrument to do this because that would mean we have to control wage increase by govermental control. New kind of communisum? That will never work. By now all nation understood this and nobody dares to increase the wages substantial in the EWU. This explains the ultra low inflation we see since a few years in the EWU. No increase or only very little increase in real wages leads to little increase in money for goods leads to little increase in inflation. In the end most of the growth in productivity goes necessarily to the capital holders. This is the picture we see since the crisis of 2009.
If the south is not competetive enough for the north we have to invest into the south. Growth only comes through investing never through saving. So the framework you mention is completly useless. The tools it is offering have no effect on the reason for the malefuntion. To make things worse it has a opposing effect. Instead increasing the investments in the south it shrinks them.
The cure for Greece according to the „framework“ led to the effect that the „saving“ and austerity shrinked the GDP massively with the consequence that depth per GDP is higher than before the „saving“.
Italy had since beeing in the Euro nearly now real growth at all. It had more before the Euro.
And no solution is in sight.
Bye Jens
You contradict yourself.
No. You assume the existence of a state transfer system as the conditio sine qua non for a common currency. Many countries work without it despite rudimentary rules: Chile, Taiwan, Egypt and so on. More than that: historically, a transfer system has usually been developed much later than the currency for a national entity.
It has way more to do how historical the nominal wages developed in comparison to the productivity. For example Italy always had higher inflation because the wages increased more than productivity.
Hello Flassbeck! What’s about the USA? The United States have traditionally higher inflation rates than Germany – but productivity ratios have been better in the Eightys than in the US economy. In fact, the unions have forced higher tariffs and the companies have reacted in the way to fire the low performers. In consequence, the productivity ratios raised.
So, be careful with your conclusions. It might be that growing wages leads to raising productivity and not the opposite way.
And by the way Germany has a tradition that its spending is founded by foreing countries that pay for our trade surplus and take on depth for this.
Ye, ye, ye. Please skip it. My opinion to this theory is absolutely well-known.
And a scond by the way. Right now the US and the UK rely on their central Banks. In the UK the central bank can now directly found the government without the banks in between. And UK and US came back much better after the crisis in 2009 than the EWU.
You see me laughing. Please take a look in the balance sheet of the European Central Bank. Astonishingly, the ECB has similar ratios of Italian bonds in its portfolio as the Fed has invested in US bonds. I have no clue why the figures are comparable but I assume that the currency watchdogs have sold the bonds once they have been issued.
Okay, it’s a theory but I guess much better than yours. 😉
If the south is not competetive enough for the north we have to invest into the south.
Good luck! Italy has it tried over generations. What have they done wrong?
Italy had since beeing in the Euro nearly now real growth at all. It had more before the Euro.
Okay, give me an idea why the Italian government has tried nearly everything to become founding member of the European Monetary Union? Only idiots in place? Are all Italians idiots?
bought instead of sold. Stefan?
Huh?
Totally agree with Stefan Sasse, his words have moved me. Sorry for putting the previous comment in Spanish.
We are introducing measures that we usually accuse China and other totalitarian states of. China provides us with medical supplies that we initially denied others, and Mr Sasse and his friend from Spain have nothing better to do than to take advantage of this to insult China. Have you no shame, you agitators.
Yeah that’s us with our anti-Chinese agenda. Good that you found us out.
It’s a communist dictatorship regime, a country with no freedom, where the virus came from after nasty censorship of the government and a lack of measures to avoid situations like the ones that originated it.
There is no doubt about what Javi said. But I have the feeling our media is rolling this message now out extisively only to avoid talking about the mistakes made by our governments. The mainstream media is reporting like in war times. If you are not with us you are against us.
What Javi said is right. But it is not realy new(s). That statement is correct since more than 50 years. It did not stop us to intensify our trade with China and do everythin to please them, i.e avoid contact with DalaiLama ecetera. Why now all this in the media. It is not your and Javis agenda, that for sure!
And regarding the help from China. Do anybody really think the Marshall Plan for Europe from the US was only for christian grace of charity? Or was it to build up Europe so that they could pay back the war dephts and help fighting the upcoming cold war?
The US, to keep in the analogy, didn’t start WII and then sent one care package hoping everyone would forget it.
To keep in the analogy: Some germans then complained about it because they thought corn is for chickens 😀
Yeah, we are sooo a nice nation^^
Well. Correctly speaking China did not start the virus, they just fu… it up completly by shooting the messenger and hoping that would somehow impress the virus.
If you blame China for acting very poorly you can say the same to European and US governments. They did not shoot the messenger but with all the expierience from China and way more time to prepare to the ciris they failed as much as the Chinese government did. Germany has not even adhered to its own pandemic plan.
And my main point was that usually foreign countries send help always out with some thoughts how that help will benefit themselfs in the future.
Please think about all the aid our government gave in the 70 to 90ies to third world countrys. Germany had regulations that instiutions using this money in Africa had to buy German products. That led to the crazy situation that German institutions relying on the aid of Germany had to buy German Merceds Benz 4 Wheel drive even if they were only active in African cities.
There is no free lunch!
The accusation I make towards China is that they purposefully covered the pandemic up and when they knew, they sent all the foreigners out while doing quarantine within.
Correct.
But really. If you see how reluctant we started the quarantine. What do you think would the US government or our meadia have said if China would have insisted to keep all foreigners in custody, ähh sorry quarantine?
It’s more about not communicating properly.
Then have fun…
I understand that he is upset because Corona hit Spain so very hard.
But I find it quite unfair to put blame on the EU or the EU-partners.
The EU was never intended to deal with pandemics – the EU-states preserved such issues for themselves. So the EU has got no funds, reserves or material to help in any way. They buy and send something as a symbolic gesture, but there is nothing they really can do.
And the same applies to the other EU-states. No one prepared properly for a case lake this, they all are lacking the necessary equipment and so they too can only send some symbolic gestures without real substance.
And concerning the death toll there is nothing to help at all. There is no cure and no vaccination yet. Doctors and nurses can do nothing to prevent people dying, they can just ease the symptoms a bit.
The death rate is a direct corollary of the infection rate which itself is only influenced by the number of contacts people made.
So isolation of different kinds is the only way we can deal with Corona itself, and of course no state can help another state isolating its citizens.
And then the „Euro-bonds“:
„And when we have 700-900 deaths EACH day in Spain and Italy for the last two weeks and a Finnish, German or Netherland politician talks about the economical conditions of the so-called Euro-bonds“
Which is a very unfair thing to say.
Because who started talking about Euro-bonds? The spanish government!
While hundreds were dying, they tried to get money out of it. While it is completely clear that Euro-bonds will have a lot of effects on different people – but will not cure one single Corona-patient and will not prevent one death.
So if northern politicians just refute the bonds (which they do for years now, the reaction was predictable), it is NOT they are talking heartlessly about money instead of life and death.
Money is needed not for the pandemic itself, but to counter the effects of the shutdown. And those effects are more or less the same for all EU-countries, they all will face a severe economic crisis. That really is not the right time to install new subsidies.
The EU was never intended to deal with pandemics – the EU-states preserved such issues for themselves. So the EU has got no funds, reserves or material to help in any way. They buy and send something as a symbolic gesture, but there is nothing they really can do.
I agree. So it is a failure of the states that from the EU. That does not make it much better.
And the same applies to the other EU-states. No one prepared properly for a case lake this, they all are lacking the necessary equipment and so they too can only send some symbolic gestures without real substance.
This is bullshit.
First) In Elsaße in France hospitals were overflowing just over the River Rhine we had houndred of intensive care units, empty. It took ages before some just a few of the sick had been tansported from France to Germany.
Second) This is no excuse that some country started confiscating maks and other medical equipment at their borders that where intended to go to other EU countrys.
Because who started talking about Euro-bonds? The spanish government!
Is this comedy? The rules in the EWU say that you can only increase your depth at a certain level. Germany is below it so they can decide this by them self. France, Italy, Spain and Portugal are above it. They have to ask! You are just complaining that they stick to the rules. Ridiculous!
I am not sure if you know. We have the EURO so they do not have their own central bank anymore.
While hundreds were dying, they tried to get money out of it. While it is completely clear that Euro-bonds will have a lot of effects on different people – but will not cure one single Corona-patient and will not prevent one death.
So if northern politicians just refute the bonds (which they do for years now, the reaction was predictable), it is NOT they are talking heartlessly about money instead of life and death.
Statements like this convince me that the EU will never work. Refusing solidarity, twisting facts and mixing it with nationalism are the opposite what the EU needs to survive.
If you look to the unemplyment rate of young people in he south your last sentence should be correted to
„it is NOT that they are only now heartlessly talking about money instead of life and death.“
That really is not the right time to install new subsidies.
Euro Bonds that are bought by the EZB are no subsidies. They include no risk for the north. EZB „borrows“ the money from itself. But they take away the possibilites that the North is demanding structural reforms from the South. This is it what is all about. By the way the structural reforms lead to less intensive care units in Italy. Now they shall get only more money if they deepen the structural reforms that increased the current agony.
That is realy the logic of a market fundamentlist.
„So it is a failure of the states that from the EU.“
It’s not.
It would only be a failure if they could help, but refuse to do it.
But they cannot.
„First) …
Second) …“
Both examples show incompetence, but after consideration help was given. And those examples are small scale only.
„They have to ask!“
They have to ask to increase their debt. Which should not have been a problem.
To ask for „Eurobonds“ means much more. They were just exploiting a convenient chance to get something they have tried getting for years.
„Refusing solidarity …“
It is NOT „solidarity“ if spain etc. try the Corona-crisis to get more subventions from the north.
„If you look to the unemplyment rate of young people in he south …“
… than we see a structural problem which has nothing to do with Corona or state deficit.
„Euro Bonds that are bought by the EZB are no subsidies. “
Certainly they are. The only point about those bonds is that the northern countries pay more interest and the southern less.
„They include no risk for the north.“
This is only true if you never intend to pay the money back.
„By the way the structural reforms lead to less intensive care units in Italy. “
Untrue.
It was the Italian government who decided to reduce this sector instead of many others available. Italy is a rich country which could easily finance its state without any debt at all.
When I read your comments I have the feeling you live in a parallel universe.
It would only be a failure if they could help, but refuse to do it.
But they cannot.
They simply could. Empty ICU beds in Germany overfloaded in Italy, Spain and France. It tooke ages before we helped them out.
They have to ask to increase their debt. Which should not have been a problem.
But apparently it is. This the reason why now the gorvernment in Italy refuses to take the money from the ESM beacuse they fear there come heavy regulation from the EU.
… than we see a structural problem which has nothing to do with Corona or state deficit.
Yes you are right. But it shows that we already gave a shit about it in the past. You define this a problem of the south. Ok. So you want to finish the EU, right? If in a cuurency union we give a shit about high unemployment why do we give a shit about the EU at all? If we show the same amount of solidarity to Spain as we show to South Africa should we then integrate South Africa into the EU or shall we kick out Spain. Apparently the EU is just a trading platform for you. But for a trading platform we do not need a EU parliament.
It is NOT „solidarity“ if spain etc. try the Corona-crisis to get more subventions from the north.
Well, if the needs are higher through Corona why then would be higher subventions not be a solidarity. What is your defintion of sloidarity. It is solidarity if it does not cost me anything? Of course are higher subventions a sign of solidarity. You misunderstood solidarity and investment.
Certainly they are. The only point about those bonds is that the northern countries pay more interest and the southern less. Correct, this is what the term currency union means. Apperently you want only to pick the cherrys from the cake. Because of the South Germany has a highly underevaluated currency. Which explains 99% of our tradesurplus and this created a lot (underpaid) jobs in Germany. But the higher interest rates that come with a weaker currency shall only be paid by the south?
This is only true if you never intend to pay the money back.
Well that is exactly what is going to happen and what happend in the past with all depths of nearly all countries in the world. The governments never paid them back since the second world war. Of course they paid the interest but took new depths to pay the old depths. In the US, Japan, UK, EWU and even Germany before the Euro had constantly growing depths.
Depth and money is the same. If the amount of money increases in the world also the depths increase 1 to 1. This is how our FIAT money works. And it is the only way it can work. Historical only small countries could grow an reduce their depth at the same time. They then always created a trade surplus with a big country, typical US. The EWU is simply to big to try this.
„By the way the structural reforms lead to less intensive care units in Italy. “
Untrue.
No fact!
https://norberthaering.de/eurokrise/draghi-italien-corona/
The EU comission and Draghi INSISTED on structural reforms and savings in the public sector. The did not say raise the taxes for rich Italiens and make them pay for it. Or lower your military expenses.
https://norberthaering.de/news/geheime-briefe-versenkt/
„You take the blue pill — the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.“ Morpheus, The Matrix
True, but the argument of course rails a lot against the rhetoric. And rhetoric is the cheapest thing there is. No one forced the Netherlands or Germany to make these insensitive statements; that’s on the respective authorities.
„No one forced the Netherlands or Germany to make these insensitive statements“
I don’t think „the Netherlands“ or „Germany“ did officially make offensive statements. And if you counting in some more or less important politicians, you find much really nasty statements on the southern side.
As for example „PIGS“ I am not sure any politician used it at all – that was mostly a media-thing.
That is right, of course. However, implicitly endorsing these narratives is something that can be laid at the respective government’s door for certain. Schäuble isn’t exactly famous for his sensitive empathy in the euro crisis, to put it mildly. That specific words were used only by certain ministers or in the media is one thing; but the behavior of governments sent clear signals that they were at least tacitly endorsing these narratives. Not to mention the concrete policies, which also supported the general message.
My compliments to this article. Interesting in the details but you have failed the macro level. Unfortunately, it has not really become an interview more a Pingpong. A journalist and blogger should not so frankly agree to his counterpart.
But, let’s put it beside. The facts are facts in terms of the health care system in Spain which is usually in a good shape. On the other hand you have not emphasised the weaknesses even the logic holes. On the Iberian peninsula roughly 40% of the total infections occure in the capital Madrid (please correct me if I am wrong) pointing to the political class and lethal failures on administration side.
You have mentioned the benefits of the common Monetary Union – advantages Spain would never received with its own single currency. But obviously some are not willing to pay the price. I am often irritated in the events the public approval to the European Union depends from the direct subsidise a member state collects.
That’s a misrepresentation of the argument; we talked specifically about the rhetoric.
First of all I‘d like to thank you both for this insightful interview. I find it very valueable for any discussion to get a direct perspective of those, who are stricken from the issue first hand.
As much I understand your disappointment and anger concerning the reaction of the EU in the current crisis, for me it‘s anything but unexpected. Tell me one Crisis in the last decades, where the EU has not failed it‘s expectations. But, if you ask me, that is only partly the EUs fault. The EU is acting within it‘s given boundaries that requires maximum consent of its members. People asking for help of an institution that is still in a phase of economic impotence, since its members fail to add the required legislation and fiscal mechanisms in order to give the EU the necessary tools really act on its own. Helmut Kohl was the last german chancellor who had a vision for Europe and put that vision into the required policy with partners to make the EU an acting player. His successors had no real idea how to develop the EU further. That leads to the situation that Germany infact the EUs leading benefactor is not able to steer the EU in a proper position to be the global player it could be. So it does not suprise, when taken to real test the EU continues to fail its expectations.
„Tell me one Crisis in the last decades, where the EU has not failed it‘s expectations.“
Main reason for this are the completely exaggerated expectations of people towards the EU.
Everyone expects to get money, but no one wants to pay.
Expectation is the EU solves all sort of problems – while the competences of the EU are heavily restricted and people complain about too much power was taken away from the nation states.
States break the EU-rules and are then disappointed that the EU does not pay the damage.
Every political level, from the commune over areas/regions/länder and the nation states to the EU has its own responsibilities and ressources. And every level can only be held accountable for problems within their responsibility.
And I do not recall a crisis which was within EU-responsibility and in which the EU disappointed.
And I do not recall a crisis which was within EU-responsibility and in which the EU disappointed.
That rather shows how low your level of expectation is.
> That rather shows how low your level of expectation is.
Just give an example of a crisis where the EU was responsible and your expectations were not met.
Distribution of refugees, Greek crisis, crisis after 2009, Eur0 crisis, change of Hungary and Poland to antidemoctric states, avoiding that banks become to big to fail, etcetera.
Show me an example where the EWU outperformed US, China …
I’m the first to argue for much more European political integration. 🙂
Because this is so, the richer and less affected countries have no excuse for not helping.
First of all i can understand Javi. I cannot understand how politicans, who are using pictures and symbols as tools, can so completely fail on an European level. It would have been so easy to make points, just like the Chinese and the Russians (and even the Cuban government!) did. Examples:
Why didn’t they paint a European flag on the airbuses who bring medical equipment from China to Spain, France, Italy and Germany? A true European company helps all European Countries?
Why not coordinate the build-up of mask-productions in the different countries
Why not finance the conversion of ICE trains into mobile intensive care units and then set up a mobile unit that can quickly bring dozens of intensive care beds to the worst affected regions.
There so many possibilities.
On the other hand, RA is right. It’s a new and unique situation for all the countries and it took weeks for all to understand, what is happening here, even for the doctors! And after the politicans understood, whats happening here, they responded at the first moment there, where they really could act: on the national level.
In addition, the European Union has no bodies to respond to pandemics. So all that remained were the usual slow mechanisms. The European Union is the level to act afterwards the crisis and to administrate the „Dance“ of the pandemic.
Plus, i am not a supporter of the „tar it all down“-idea, because we have a total different situation compared to the 1950ies. After WWII the common sense was, that the national states failed utterly, so we need some kind of European coordination to prevent a new big war. And now you have the situation, that the European Union „failed“ and the national states will earn the fame. Plus, i can’t see any politicans who could lead a movement to a new European Union. And the third point is, that the extremist movements are still strong. In my opinion a destruction of the European Union will lead to a renaissance of the national states and to an end for some kind of European coordination for a long time!
But i can understand (and it’s my opinion too), that a strong signal of solidarity would have been absolutely necessary.
But i also have one thing to say about china. I am working for a export orientated company which belongs to a large corporation. In january and february when the situation in Wuhan gets odd, we send containers full of masks and medical equipment to China. This equipment was not only for our employees there but also for the hospitals in Hubei and other chinese provinces. You won’t read anywhere about these donations, because it was a matter of course to help here.
And now, when we need these masks, they sell them to us and say: Look how great we are. Fucking chinese government!!!
“and miles away of US public healthcare system”
Oh really? Spain with a population of about 45 million has currently almost as many recorded deaths from Covid-19 as the US with a population of over 320 million. How is your health care system, which is clearly overwhelmed, so much better than that of the US?
“Or if you don’t treat elder people with the virus and just let them die to save resources”
That’s cold. But where exactly in Germany, the Netherlands, Finland and Austria is this happening?
“Or if, thanks to the euro, you kept the most high tech industries and sold us those products easily while we sold you sun, beaches and fruit. It’s a great deal always trading microscopes for oranges”
Well, if that’s all you have in Spain…? And Germany et al had those “high tech industries” long before there was a Euro. Why is it that Spain, despite basically being gifted a stable, world class currency and the associated benefits was unable to create those industries in the past 20 years? Where did your money and your efforts go…oh I see – there:
“Almost 80% of the Spanish national budget (around 1 billion euros, the european billion, not the American) is dedicated to the support of the Welfare State, mostly health, education and retirement pensions. Make it 85% with the pensions to the unemployed”
I have not bothered to check those figures but they seem way off. 85% of your national budget goes to the welfare state? If that’s true, how do you finance infrastructure, public security, national defence and the service of your national debt? No wonder you are broke…
“How is it possible? Well, because it’s not sustainable. The system only works because doctors, nurses, etc have wages far lower than in other European countries.”
It’s not sustainable. You said it yourself…
I said it’s not sustainable because it’s only afloat due to low salaries for doctors/nurses in the public healthcare, considering what doctors/nurses earn in other countries.
What do salaries of doctors or nurses in other countries have to do with this? I guarantee you that doctors in Bulgaria or Romania make way less than those in Spain. It’s tied to the cost of living, and to compare nominal salaries across countries makes no sense whatsoever unless you factor in the respective cost of living in each of those countries.
“The system does not need to be reformed, it just needs more money to hire more doctors/nurses and pay more to the ones already working”
Ok. You don’t want to reform your unsustainable system, you just want somebody else to pay for it. And you’re mad because that somebody else says “I don’t think so”. Actually, they don’t even say that, they are more like Col. Jessup: “You have to ask me nicely!” But that’s the issue, isn’t it? You don’t want to have to ask anymore. You just want to be able to take that OPM (other people’s money) and spend it whichever way you see fit. And then take some more OPM when you need more. And so forth…which is what the corona bonds are really all about. It’s not about just about the money, it’s about not having to ask anymore.
“Brexit also brings a dangerous precedent: you can leave EU, and EU will do nothing to stop you”
What did you have in mind – the EU as something like Gandalf on that bridge in the dwarf kingdom, yelling “you shall not pass”? If (as it turned out) the UK really wanted to leave the EU, there was ultimately nothing that could be done to keep it in. The EU did try for quite a while to prevent Brexit.
„in a dream scenario, we may leave EU, form an association of countries with Portugal, Italy, France, Greece, Croatia, etc, a Mediterranean-EU“
Hahahahahahaha [deep breath] hahahahahahahaha. Let us know how this turns out for you.
“but the current system will continue. Mostly because the richest and most powerful benefit from it”
Huh. And I thought that system with its massive transfers was good above all for the less fortunate, who are able to access that “pure socialist dream” of a health care system in Spain without having to pay a cent which shouldn’t be a problem for the rich? Would you not have run out of money a long time ago if there was no EU, no Euro and no transfers?